Insane torque

Filed under: Random Musings — Chris at 10:39 am on Wednesday, December 28, 2005

The Bugatti Veyron, putting out 922ft-lbs of torque

It’s often said (you’ll certainly see it a lot here) that electric motors produce monstrous torque in comparison to their overall horsepower. It’s the force that causes your circular saw to accelerate with a slam, achieving 75% of its maximum RPM in a quarter second, and achieving full speed in the next 2-3 seconds. Scale that phenomemon up to a full-size car with a controller capable of feeding the necessary amps, and you’ve got a formula for some pretty exciting off-the-line acceleration.

But how much is a “lot” of torque?

Just to put things in perspective, check out this article about the new Bugatti Veyron, which is now the fastest road car in the world. At 1000 BHP, it soundly beats — no, humiliates — the performance of the previous record-holder, the McLaren F1. (My favorite oft-reported statistic: if the Veyron launches from a standstill as an F1 passes it at 120mph, the Veyron will beat the F1 to 200mph.)

The point I wanted to make here isn’t about power though; it’s about torque. Read to the end of the page at the above link — the torque that this massive quad-turbo W-16 engine produces is far and away the most ever seen from a road car, at 922 ft-lbs. That torque is directly related to the feel of acceleration you will experience from the car, and the number is truly unprecedented … from a road-going gas engine.

There is not yet any detailed information about maximum horsepower or torque available from the motor I’ve chosen, but with the earlier (shorter) prototype, I have dyno data indicating just a hair under 900 ft-lbs, at 1400 amps. With the longer armature section (i.e. more torque per amp), I expect the figure to be competitive with the Veyron.

And then of course, there’s that issue with amps — see, I won’t be limited to 1400A, as the guys at the motor shop were. My controller will be capable of 2000A on the motor side, and with a controller bypass perhaps 2500A or so is achievable at WOT. This puts torque output well past the most powerful road car ever built.

Reality check - notice I didn’t say power output. The ability to maintain a certain torque at a given RPM or vehicle speed is dependent on power. And there’s really no comparison with 1000BHP, at least not for $35k from my garage. Lest we conclude I’m having delusions of grandeur quoting my singular comparable statistic with such a product of engineering greatness, let’s enumerate some of the ways in which my project will NOT produce even a cheap electric mockery of a supercar:

  • AWD. My truck will power the rear wheels; true supercars like the Veyron and the F1 send power to all four.
  • Tires. I won’t have 14″ wide super-gummy tires in back, at least not on the street. In fact traction on the street is looking like it’s going to be a big problem, unless I detune the controller (which is probably a good idea anyway).
  • Gearing. Unlike a real supercar, I won’t have a transmission, at least not at first. So, my motor’s torque won’t benefit from multiplication before it reaches the differential. This is probably the most important of all these points.
  • Weight. The Veyron is a 2-ton car. Mine will be a little more. The Veyron has a carbon fiber body, with some aluminum thrown in for garnish. Mine … steel, and lots and lots of lead.
  • Handling. While the center/rear weight distribution of the truck should provide the ability to drift (which would be pretty surreal in a pickup truck), handling will most certainly feel like a garage-built vehicle, not one designed by the world’s top automotive engineers.
  • Aero drag. I’m building a pickup truck. Nuff said.
  • Top speed. Well, no I was wrong; this is the most important point. By not having a transmission, I’m limited to the RPM range of the motor, which means that with race gearing installed in the rear end, I’ll be limited to around 110mph or so.

Still, there’s something compelling about torque — it’s the force that pushes your car off the line, and also the force that cracks axles and strips gear teeth. Truly it’s more of a curse than a bragging point in electric motorsport, since the enormous torque we have to deal with means parts must be much stronger (i.e. heavier) than for a gas-powered car of similar power. But there’s a silver lining; the ability to achieve that torque straight from zero RPM, and maintain that peak torque flat out to your battery current limit and/or motor voltage limit, means that e.g. a 400HP electric will be more than a match for a 400HP gas-powered car.

4 Comments »

10

Comment by Chris Robison

December 30, 2005 @ 11:19 am

BTW, if you missed the episode of Top Gear where they raced a Veyron vs. a Cessna (yes, you read that right) from Italy to London, you really should check it out; quite a hoot :o)

12

Comment by Jesse

January 4, 2006 @ 9:21 am

The McLaren F1 is a rear-wheel-drive only car. It’s not always all about torque either, jet engines make fractions of ft-lbs of torque, but because they are so high up in the RPMs, the horsepower is much greater. Think of it like this: You can always change horsepower into torque with gearing, but you can’t always change torque into horsepower. Ask any diesel truck.

13

Comment by Chris Robison

January 5, 2006 @ 10:48 pm

Oops — that’s pretty embarassing. I definitely got that wrong; the F1 is indeed rear-wheel drive.

I do realize it’s not all about torque, but I think you misunderstand the concepts involved. Power can be defined as comprising two component “parts” — it is the combination of a force (e.g. ft-lbs, pounds, volts, PSI, etc) with a rate or speed at which the force is delivered (RPM, fps, amps, cfm, respectively). The two values make equal and symmetrical contributions to power — you multiply the two values together and power is the result.

So an engine or motor delivering a certain amount of power can do so by providing high torque at a low speed, low torque at a high speed, or more typically somewhere in between. Raise either or both, and power increases. Gearing is a tradeoff of one for the other, and a little is lost in the trade as no such conversion can occur without friction.

What complicates matters is that power is not constant. In order to achieve constant power throughout its speed range, a powerplant would have to make torque approaching infinity as RPM approaches zero. No powerplant does this of course, although the theoretical power model for a DC electric motor would approximate it if not restricted by the current limitations of the controller and its own windings.

What helps an electric motor/controller setup perform better (in most cases vastly better) than a gas engine of the same maximum horsepower is its “hang time” at peak torque. While a gas engine develops peak torque at a specific point in its powerband, the electric motor achieves maximum torque instantaneously at zero RPM and maintains it continuously until the back-emf of the motor has reached the same voltage as the battery pack, or any motor voltage limit programmed into the controller. At this point the controller exits current-limit mode and torque falls as you continue to accelerate (and by this time you’re probably going quite fast).

So while peak power and to a lesser extent peak torque do give important clues as to a vehicle’s expected acceleration capability, the real story is in the power curve — how power changes with speed. Since speed is a known continuum in the power curve, the same data can be shown as a “torque curve” instead (a motor’s smoothly increasing power curve will appear as a flat, horizontal torque curve).

So in case it was not clear in the post, I do in no way pretend that my truck is even in the same neighborhood as a supercar such as the Veyron. I expect a peak horsepower figure somewhere in the 350-400HP range given my controller, motor and battery pack combination. But I expect to more than keep up with any gas car of similar power, at least until I hit that knee in the torque curve. :o)

14

Comment by vivek g.

January 6, 2006 @ 9:06 pm

Link to the full video (google video):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3198662249757043000&q=top+gear+veyron

What I found interesting is that they make them at a huge loss (4-5 million some-euro-currency).

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